I worked with two athiests for a while and they liked to debate God and creation with me . One thing they said and it was a good argument, is that if all things demand that there be a creator, that means that God, being more complex than all of creation, also was a design that needed a creator… and that if I believed that God just exsisted without a creator than why shouldn’t they believe that the world exsists without a creator?
Do you have and explanation for this good argument?
It’s not really a good argument at all. Just finite men, thinking in finite terms.
Every “designed” thing comes from a designer. Think of the ridiculous extremes we go to in order to avoid that reality. No one would argue that a modern PENCIL could EVER just “fall together” by random chance no matter how many billions of years you gave it or how much “raw” material was available. And yet, that same “logical person” turns right around and says that an almost infinitely complex human being “just happened” by accident. When it comes to Creation by a Designer, we just check our brains at the door.
Any honest person has to admit that every design must have a Designer; but this cannot step backwards infinitely. No matter how far back you take the question “well then, who designed that?” you have to come to a point where the Designer becomes the self-existent originator of all design.
It’s absurd to think that anything with design requires no designer. It’s also absurd to believe that the FIRST design came about from nothing which is the foundation of the so-called athiest and humanist belief: “first there was nothing, and it became something”.
So no matter how far back you go, at some point logically there must be a First Cause, a First Designer, who is Self Existent and beyond our comprehension. Man, in his arrogance, believes that if he can’t understand God, and can’t reduce God to his logical terms, then of course, God doesn’t exist. That makes no more sense than saying a toothpick can’t exist unless it can figure out and understand the machine that made it, or the engineer that made the machine that makes toothpicks. It’s like saying a computer can’t exist unless the computer can fully comprehend, understand and “prove” the existence of the human engineers.
And God is infinitely greater and higher than man compared to toothpick/machine, computer/engineer.
Your two athiest friends show a blatant bias and huge flaw in their powers of reason and deduction, as well as shallow and poor grasp of what “God” has to be. To believe that God “exists without a creator” is to believe the obvious TRUTH about what MUST be the nature of an eternal, transcendent God MUST be…. that He is First, Eternal, the Original, unCreated, Self Existent and beyond human comprehension. Yet your friends believe that they are so intelligent and self-dependent, that NOTHING can possibly exist that they don’t know about or comprehend (which is a logical absurdity given that fact that countless things in science, the universe, the human body, history, etc exist without their knowledge or understanding of it).
Your athiest co-workers drag God down into the realm of our existence. To believe God must be “created” just like everything else in our known existence, is to like dragging the creator of a toothpick down to the level of the toothpick rather than recognizing the transcendent nature of the creator of the toothpick (when comparing the creator-of-the-toothpick to the toothpick itself).
Using their logic, then we would have to conclude that the engineer who made the machine that makes the toothpicks must have been created and made the exact way, and of the same elements, and by the same known process that toothpicks were made Measure the gap in complexity, design and power between a toothpick and the human engineer….. that gap is but a speck compared to the gap that separates a human from God, the Ultimate and First Engineer.
Romans is very clear about how about men will deny God in the face of overwhelming evidence. Remember that it is not your job to change their minds, only to present the truth. Don’t be frustrated when they ridicule you, and throw up all sorts of silly arguments; they are only acting in accord with their darkened minds and sinful nature.
Romans 1:20-25 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (NKJV)
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